In this second of our London Cyclist week of polls I’m heading to a very hot topic of the moment. There was recently news about Westminster council raising the fines for cyclists to £100. Any cyclist therefore caught skipping red lights, on pavements or ignoring one way signs would receive a fairly harsh fine of £100. (This used to be £30).
The post back then raised a lot of debate with a total of 37 comments left.
Those for the harsher fines: Will argue that cyclists are not above the law and they are governed by the highway code in the same way as any motorist. The harsher fine may help to discourage those that keep flouting the laws. The cyclists for the higher fines will talk about how those that do skip red lights are painting a less positive picture of cycling and likely to cause less people to want to start cycling. Many people will also talk about the anger people seem to express at pavement cycling and the dangers that poses for pedestrians.
Those against the harsher fines: Will argue that the road system in the UK was designed around cars and not bikes. This often leaves cyclists in less than safe positions and the occasional bit of red light skipping actually helps to prevent danger. Whilst they don’t encourage flouting all the laws they acknowledge a bit of rule bending is necessary to stay safe. They will point out that the number of accidents caused by cyclists is extremely low and deaths even lower to none existent. The harsher fines will only serve to discourage new cyclists to join as they keep hearing stories about people receiving big fines. They may also argue that a harsh fine is not the correct way to discourage people and instead better cycling facilities should be built.
Do you think cyclists should receive harsher fines for breaking the rules?
Also don’t forget to vote in yesterdays poll on the London Cycle Hire scheme which is just 2 people short of 100!
I voted for higher fines. Although I jump red lights, I do it when I can see there are no pedestrains crossing, and no cars approaching, therefore I have plenty of time to see if there is a policeman/woman around!
I never ride on the pavement, and hate it when cyclists do, there’s no excuse (unless you’re a small child, then safety is an issue)
Now I’ve written this I’m bound to get collared!
I’m mostly a law abiding cyclist – seeing others run red lights really angers me – but harsher fines certainly aren’t the answer. Cycling infrastructure is so poor that it seems completely unfair to target a minority in this way, especially given all the benefits that cycling brings.
Something has to be done to stop cyclists going through red lights. I stop at all red lights and don’t feel in any extra danger sitting waiting for them to go green either. Don’t understand why others think they do.
It is just laziness, and selfishness. Plain and simple.
If ALL cyclists started abiding by the rules, then we will all get more respect and understanding on the road.
And I am sick of the old “I only do it when…..” line. Rubbish. Red = Stop. Green = Go.
Not an overly complicated bit of thought process. I learnt that as a VERY young child, and the logic hasn’t changed since. I haven’t ever had any trouble grasping the concept.
I use the roads in London in different ways, rather than a cyclist, I am a road user. I cycle for my daily commute and for leisure at weekends however I also drive a car take a bus,train or taxi. As such natural justice does seem to me that cyclists should be equally treated by the law. One thing that does the cyclists cause great harm is the apparent disregard of the law by the light jumpers.
You might think I would want harsher fines, not so however but I would like to see the law more regularly enforced for those who break it. Lets face it apart from the city square mile where sporadically a blitz happens most of us could disregard rules of the road law with relative impunity. It would not matter what the fine was if those committing the offence were sure they would most likely get away with it. However to enforce the law would be massively expensive, therefore it will not happen. Cultural shift is needed for all road users to respect and understand the needs of others.
I have been cycling in and around central London for over thirty years now. Back in the seventies we were all considered eccentric loonies and were generally treated badly by other road users. Times have changed and I believe cyclists due to campaign groups such as LCC and blogs like this, have raised awareness and the issues that most of us feel a lot more respected and considered on the London streets. Or is jut just my white hair and beard that gains me this respect.
Thirty years ago cyclists rarely jumped lights now it is commonplace. I feel the respect we have won over those thirty years could now be lost. As I said above fines large or small will not change matters. OK, I’ll get my coat and shut up now!
agh! can’t vote for either – whilst the fine will be comparable to a minor motoring offence and so brings the penalty into the risk of harm. It is actually the cyclist who is liable to be the one at risk. Perhaps they could relabel stupidity tax.
Plus what is the point of a fine of £10, £100, or even £1000 if the level of enforcement is so low? There won’t be many 13 yr old boys (who ride pavements more and less responsibly) paying the fine or changing behaviour because of it.
Whatever we think about higher and lower fines, it’s really a moot point because unless it’s enforced it will not make the slightest bit of difference. I commute by bike on a daily basis and during my 20 minute trip I usually see 5-10 drivers making mobile calls, reading maps, talking to their kids in the back seat etc, without regard to the potential punishment for such an offence. The police, whether we like it or not, have better things to do.
The fact that it is illegal to cycle on the pavement or jump red lights is mainly useful in helping to establish liability in the event of an accident, and increasing the fine will not change this.
I have to agree with what Adam says, you don’t see it being enforced. And is a policeman/woman on foot really going to be able to catch up with cyclist, esp if they’ve jsut gone through on a red light and if its in traffic in central london i doubt one in a car would have much hope either.
i’d like to see them emforce the rules on ridign on pavements and those riding with no lights before they try anythign to new.As a cyclist those are the ones that bug me the most when fellow cyclists do it.
Will – I think you are tempting fate!
Oliver – Agreed, I don’t think harsher fines is the way to prevent people from skipping reds etc
Nathan – thanks for sharing your opinion
Tim – Interesting observation of the changes in attitudes towards cyclists. I hope that this will improve as time goes on and won’t be effect by the occasional light jumping. Mind you I’m sure the white beard helps!
Craig – it’s a tough question isn’t it! It would be interesting to see what the demographic is of people who do cycle on pavements. Because I swear its just kids and older women.
Adam S – Agreed on your point about the lack of enforcement. It is the same case with this three feet to pass thing the government has said no to today stating that in the highway code it already says give plenty of room. Yet, no one is out there enforcing a rule such as this.
Phil, I think the bike lights one is a more important one too. Because that really is taking a stupid risk for you and others
I think the primary reason people jump red lights is that they perceive it to be acceptable, as it is now so commonplace. However, the reason people originally started to do it was to avoid the danger of junctions (the majority of cyclist’s serious injuries and deaths happen at junctions)
It is sad that Westminster Council saw red light jumping as a potential source of revenue, instead of being proactive by questioning the cause and perhaps installing bicycle advance mini lights, like they have in Europe, as a solution. But then, if we can’t get all motorists to obey the ASL, I doubt we’ll get them to wait for cyclist’s lights either… shame, as I think this one small step would make a huge difference in encouraging more cyclists.
MarkA – that’s an interesting point about bicycle advance mini lights. I believe that drivers generally have more ‘respect’ for lights than they do for lines on the road and so would be more inclined to obey them, especially with the knowledge that cameras can be placed on junctions. Maybe cyclists would then believe they are being given an equal chance of survival and would be more willing to wait for their turn. Still, as you say it’s just wishful thinking for now.
I’m in favour of whatever fine the authorities deem necessary so long as jaywalkers and zombie pedestrians wandering around on cycle paths get exactly the same fine for their careless and inconsiderate behaviour.
I voted against.
If you take into account the government states: “The minimum fine for speeding or running a red light is £60 and three penalty points added to your licence.” for cars, then its pretty pathetic to give cyclist £100 fines for what is undoubtably a lesser crime.
Howerver, if part of this inititive included that motorvehicle drivers were fined £100 for proceeding into a bike box at the traffic lights, or blocking cycle lanes that flow up to traffic lights in order to stop you passing them; then I would reconsider my position.
Well I reluctantly voted for fines. They are not the answer but are better than nothing.
I stop at red lights (although have been known to stretch a stop line to be ahead of traffic), but I reckon I am in the minority.
I am shocked at how many cyclists ride in the dark with no lights on.
I don’t see why cyclists should be given harsher fines than motorists. Just enforcement of the law generally would seem sensible.
George
Voted for harsher. Maybe I shouldn’t have voted since I don’t live in UK. I would vote the same here (USA) however. If cyclists want respect from motorists then we need to follow the rules of the road. “Share the road” is a common refrain here. We can’t have it both ways. It is also a practical matter of safety. The motorist deserves to know that our road behavior is predictable. If I’m driving a car through a green light I do not expect some numbskull on a bicycle to suddenly appear in the intersection! Vice versa I certainly don’t want to get hit by something a lot heavier.
To be honest, I don’t know or have seen any cyclist that would have the nerve to ride through pedestrians crossing the road… I’m against fines for cyclists, if this starts then when will it end? Will we see licence plates for bicycles, tax, congestion charges….? Allowing the government to tap into this area too will only cripple the bicycle community, not encourage others to join…
cbi, I hear you. In re: your last point, however, I don’t see the bicycle community being crippled. Indeed, it certainly hasn’t done so to the motoring community.
All Cyclists who beak the law and jump red lights should be prosecuted. This is a dangerous and inconsiderate practice which brings our prefered method of transport into disrepute.
and
ALL MOTORISTS WHO DISREGARD THE SPEED LIMIT LAWS (FAR MORE DANGEROUS) SHOULD LIKEWISE BE PENALISED.
Lets here the motoring public on that point of view.
One point that must not be forgotten is that in the UK cyclists kill between zero and one pedestrians per year through reckless behaviour, motorists are responsible for the deaths of thousands. The number of deaths of child cyclists rose last year. The authorities should be tackling the REAL problem in this country – the supremacy of the motorist. Sitting up and kowtowing to the ignorant who shout about “bloody cyclists” does not help the situation whatsoever. It is merely perception, not reality. Increasing the number of cyclists and pedestrians in our towns and cities is the only way to decrease killing by car.
The only shout “bloody cyclists” because there are so many cyclists that flout the laws.
Nathan: Absolutely agree. I ride from Barnet to the city each day, and the number of cyclists who I see flouting laws greatly exceeds the number of drivers doing the same.
Of course it is the case that a driving contravention is likely to have a more serious aftermath, but that is very much a secondary point.
It is /convenient/ to run red lights, the major impact on journey time is how often you have to stop, but it is /convenient/ not to have to queue up to pay for stuff in shops. Running red lights in any vehicle is wrong and should be punished appropriately.
I voted against as I don’t believe harsher fine would achieve much.
Enforcement would only work if there was better enforcement of other rules of the road (drivers on hand held mobile phones, vehicles in ASLs, speeding, etc).
I also don’t agree with Nathan, even if all cyclists stopped at red driver would still have a moan about us. It would just be about getting held up by cyclists, or our ability to kepping moving when they are in a queue. If we have lights on, they moan about not being dressed head to toe in illuminus yellow. They seem to think that helmets will somehow protect against all injuries in a crash.
A change in attitude will only come about when more people cycle, and so know what its like.
Bicycle advance mini lights would help greatly at junction and I think would reduce some of the red light jumping. But I can imagine the howles of protest from motorists if they were introduced.
As for people cycling on the pavement, I mainly see teenagers and nervous looking women. If the roads were less threatening, they would be on the road. Also it would help when they put a one-way system in they made some cycle lanes/paths so you didn’t have to take a massive diversion.
However if I’m in an ASL and a HGV pulls up alongside me so I’m in his blind spot I’d rather jump the red than become another fatal statistic.
Some interesting points above.
I voted higher fines but I don’t really know why 🙂
On my commute in and around Manchester I see some appalling cycling by people which ends up winding up motorists who then tar us all with the same brush, and to be honest – you can see why. I overtook a cyclist the other day and pulled up at the lights – he wasn’t happy with that so he bumped up on the pavement to go through a red and tried to muscle me out of the way as I was going through the changed lights. Why o why?
On the other hand, I also see more appalling driving – RLJing by at least 20 / 30 cars a night – and of course, its all captured on my camera and placed in the relevant places.
The ASL thing is a difficult one, as when cars pull up to them – there are no cycles in there (normally). And when a cyclist realises there is a car there – they just sit back in the traffic leaving the driver in front thinking that they aren’t being used.
If its safe – stick yourself in the ASL, even with a car there. Make a point but make sure they see you. A nice polite thumbs up and a smile tends to work. The more drivers realise they are being used, the quicker they will adjust their driving?
Incidentally, I was cycling home last night and collared a police van parked in an ASL – I’ve not edited my video footage yet, but will have some fun with it on my website and with the local police.
And I’ve probably rambled on a little bit too long – but the morale of the whole story is this: Stick to the Highway Code then people can’t have any problem with you. Do your bit for the cycling community and lets work together to make the roads a safer place to be!
And as my 4yr old daughter sings: “Red Means Stop, Green Means Go, Amber Means Go But Very Slow”.
@Nathan: I cant agree with that at all. Motorists shout at everyone because they believe they have a superior right to be there above everyone else.
Car drivers shout “bloody buses”, “Bloody Taxi’s”. Taxi drivers shout “bloody cars, “Bloody Buses” and bus drivers shout “bloody cars”, “bloody taxis” when they are not shouting “bloody cyclists”.
The problem isn’t what one group is doing, its how other groups react to what they perceive and deem as wrong, regardless of what is actually right or wrong. I never run red lights, mainly because my town doesn’t have traffic lights, and I still get the same abuse from local drivers.
As for lending credence to the misconception that they are some how better understood when you accept its bad cyclists who generate the anger…. I firmly believe that you cant rationalise the following fact:
Vehicle drivers apportion blame to everyone else, so they can rationalise and justify nearly killing pedestrians and cyclists with their ton of motorised steel, in order to save 5 seconds travel time.
Maybe the UK should introduce this:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/27/fine_plan/
Might make people think twice when they get into their cars?
As a motorcyclist and a cyclist I think common sense should prevail here. It’s much safer (in London) to use the pedestrian lights to make a gentle early getaway if there are no pedestrians of course. This avoids being mown down in the green light grand prix when the lights change. Jumping a direct red is ill advised but hey, why not jump off and become a pedestrian pushing a bike for 5 seconds. The law can be an ass and only to cater for the lowest common denominator and the very stupid.
Mmmm, you’ve certainly picked a hot topic.
I do feel this move is contrary to Westminster’s green travel plan.
Westminster have been the scourge of the motorist for years and it now seems that it could be the cyclist turn, and rightly so.
I voted for less harsh fines, but still want those cyclist who deem it necessary to break the law, and it is a law that they are breaking, by running red lights et al.
But, there are questions to be had here:
Who will enforce and how will it be enforced, it must be at the time with video evidence, Police, CEO’s or council employees?
Will there also be a stamp down on every other law that the motorist breaks, particularly using a mobile whilst on the move and dangerous driving.
Its never easy being a cyclist, but if you do break the law you should pay the consequences.
Most cyclists are also drivers of cars. Would you drive down a one way street in your car or run a red light?
Gary, you made me chuckle.
I don’t know the area round my house very well, and last week was making my way to Oldham via sat nav, which directed me down a street. Because I was paying attention to the sat nav and not the car, I ended up driving right at a 4×4 the wrong way down a one way street 🙂
Of course it wasn’t intentional and as soon as I realised I got out of the way of the 4×4 and was very apologetic!
And your right – would people run red lights in cars? Perhaps some do…
I’m disappointed at all the comments about “jumping” red lights. If you are the type of person who as a pedestrian, always crosses at pedestrian crossings and only when the man is green, fine, otherwise you are a hypocrite.
I hate the phrase running/jumping red lights kind of gives the impression of driving straight through which would be dumb not to mention suicidal. But I DO think cyclists should be allowed the privilege to treat red lights like stop signs.
If it annoys some fat cat sitting in his heated/cooled lump of polluting plastic & metal, tough, just another price to pay for the privilege of driving a car.
I don’t agree with cycling on pavements but like someone already said, if authorities are going to start fining cyclists they better also go for bad drivers and pedestrians who use cycle lanes
Now I know you are a troll, but I’ll bite.
Crossing the road where and when you like is lawful.
Cycling through red lights is unlawful.
Still, your world where you choose which laws you fancy must be nice
LOL – I wasn’t going to bite either but I will 🙂
My four year old daughter knows that crossing a light whilst it is on red is not allowed. She’s four.
If some of the cyclists out there could have the mentality of my four year old, then we’d get a lot less stick from the “They always jump red lights” brigade.
I watched a gentleman this morning hit red lights at around 25mph on his bike and went straight through – didn’t look left or right as he did it. A cyclist behind him tried to do the same but got stuck as a car was turning into her path.
I also saw a woman do it twice on a road where a cyclist was nearly killed. I caught up twice and mentioned that she really ought to be staying still at reds and got told to eff off.
She then proceeded to saunter across two very busy lanes without even signalling nor looking what was behind her.
And yes – I know cars do the same too, but its easier to report / fine cars due to reg plates, and just because cars do it doesn’t mean we can too.
We need to get our own house in order before pointing the finger. THEN and only then can we truly be “holier than though”
Re car drivers jumping red lights: In my experience red in London seems to mean ‘another 3 cars can squeeze through’.
George, I think the discussion was about the risks or otherwise of breaking certain laws, and related deterrents, rather than just a blanket statement that all law breaking = bad.
I’m in the ColMarmaduke camp, and have to bite back too…
Joby – both your examples of cyclists jumping red lights involve cyclists who are doing it with out due care and attention, like someone driving a car on a mobile phone or not using their mirrors (I know, or jumping a red light!)
I think there’s a big difference if a cyclist approaches a junction, slows, checks for pedestrains and cyclists and then carrys on. Especially in a big town or city where the roads are heavily congested.
In the same way there are idiots who run across a road when a cars coming, the majority wait until it is clear to cross, but we don’t tar all pedestrain with the same brush.
People driving in london are always going to be angry and frustrated, I get the same if I’m stuck in traffic. Cyclists could stop off with coffee and cake and they’d blame us for the crumbs in the car. You also have to bare in mind that alot of drivers are driving for work not pleasure, so have the added stresses that that involves.
I guess what I’m trying to say is I can see where drivers are coming from and sympathise with them, but we’ll never please all of them, and we’ll never change their minds on cyclists, even if we stop at all lights and obey all road laws. So why not do what you feel is safe with, to get you from A-B in one piece, afterall its your life at risk!
I’ll come back 🙂
I cycle in London, Barnet to the City and back each day
I drive in London (in the centre rarely, in the outskirts often)
I try and obey the law both when I am cycling and driving.
I arrive in the city at 7am each morning. Generally the junctions are empty; it would be equally safe for me to drive through them, or to cycle through them; the junctions are empty. I stop.
This whole thread has come down to :
Do you obey the law, even if there is not really a good reason to do so:
Me: yes
Others: no
I’ll second that George.
Funny how the comments have gone completely off topic 🙂
I voted for harsher fines.
The way to improve cycling in London is to attract more cyclists. Threatening cyclists with heavy fines sends out the signal the city is not cycle friendly and won’t do anything to attract more bikers, cyclists loose.
I don’t cycle in London fortunately, so really don’t know what you guys go through. I have walked from Euston my works offices and was shocked at what I saw though 🙂
Although I did vote harsher fines, I stated at the top, I had no clue why I had.
Cycle safely people.
I would rather give up cycling then cycle on a road.
I love this surreal comment. do you only cycle on pavements and accross fields?
Joby says: “We need to get our own house in order before pointing the finger. THEN and only then can we truly be “holier than though.”
I say, yes, and vice versa! Whatever level at which fines are set, they should equally apply to jaywalking pedestrians and reckless motorists (although considering the ability of motorists to kill, equality is perhaps not appropriate). And the law should be applied equally.
It seems to me as though there is a witch hunt against cyclists from many quarters. The crimes of cyclists are being magnified, the crimes of others ignored. Equality is all we should be asking for.
If your in your car at a set of reds, at it’s safe to turn left because there is no traffic then would you?
I agree that motorists are as bad as cyclists and their weapon of choice can kill. That’s why I cycle with a camera on my head and submit these infractions to local councils to highlight issues on the roads of their creation.
I’m not critisising anybody for the way they cycle – that’s up to them but if they jumpl red lights etc then they can’t really complain about motorists that do the same.
I stay on the side of the law. Sure it might cause me 5 minutes more journey time on my cycle home but that’s my choice. I also tend to catch up to the people jumping lights (99/100).
As I’ve said previously – I don’t cycle in London. I don’t know how dangerous it feels. Some SMIDSY clips have been sent to me by riders in London and they are scary as hell.
If I had to cycle in and around London my attitudes to the above might change.
Cycling in London is no different to any other large city in the world.
Anybody says they need to go through red lights to stay safe, are just full of rubbish.
I don’t take notice of the opinions of people who don’t know the difference between “your” and “you’re”…
Apologies for my tardiness. iPhones tend to be difficult to type on at the best of times – even more so when hungover and at 7:45 in the morning.
Next time I post I’ll make sure it passes the “Murray” factor so that my opinion counts 😉
Personally, I just do whatever I want a bicycle. I mean, if I’m riding on a public pavement, or riding a bicycle whilst drunk… I can simply ditch the bike or speed off on it putting my hood up. I’ve done red lights, too. (I only break the rules on a bicycle, otherwise I’m a law abiding motorist.
Harsher fines mean nothing. And, being young, I highly doubt the police would take the trouble to TRY and catch up chasing you.
This is the beauty of cycling – you can break the “laws” and get away with it.
Just wanted to add, that bicycles don’t have registration plates. So, if you can’t be identified… it could be anybody committing an “offence”.
I’m tired of everyone hating me and each other on the road. I try to make eye contact and say thank you to drivers. Vehicles dehumanise us.
When you jump the lights on a bike, what ever the reason, however good it sounds, the drivers watching you do it take it as a personal insult. They will make your life difficult when they catch you up. Every time you break the law on a bike you make your own life harder by losing the respect of fellow road users. I hate people who break the law needlessly, and there IS a big difference.
But I do jump the lights very occaisonally (twice this year?), sometimes it is just too dangerous to wait in the traffic. Sometimes I get off and walk across the junction, I have no Idea if this is more or less irritating that riding across- can a driver enlighten me?
The hardest thing in the world is to remain calm when a driver nearly kills you. I have become calmer as I have become faster and more confident, less self righteous and more in control.
No to the fines. The fines can’t distinguish between safe and pointless light jumping. It is not the principle of law breaking that matters to me, but the real effect of our actions.
Today I was walking on the footpath. A white van turned onto the path from the road, drove along the footpath and stopped about five foot in front of me. The driver decided that parking completely on the path was okay. Did anyone say anything? Not even the police car driving past gave this asshole a second look! There are double standards in most things in this country. And this is yet another.
You mean we get RUNDOWN AND have to pay a larger fine? Not very sensible, huh?
No, if they violate traffic rules then they definitely deserve some punishment. But harsher punishments are not good. Harsher punishments must be given to those who mix drinking and driving.